Jess
Kia ora I'm Jess from the external communications team here at the FMA and you're joining me for another episode of Jess learns to invest. I'm really excited. We've got Frances Cook on the podcast today. We're going to do a special International Woman's Day episode for you. So we're going to be talking about women investors and how to grow your confidence. I'm super thrilled to introduce Frances to the podcast today. You were journalist previously. You've got two books and you've got a podcast called ‘Making Cents’. I was super stoked to get you on the podcast today. I thought, who better to talk to me on our international Woman's Day special of Jess learns to invest. So welcome, Frances. Thank you for joining.
Frances
Ohh thanks for having me honoured.
Jess
Before we kind of get into the topic of today, could you just introduce yourself to the audience and then just talk a little bit how you got into the financial space? Cause I know you were a journalist first, so how did you kind of get into that financial education space?
Frances
Yeah, sure. So yeah, thanks again for having me on. It's really nice to talk about this stuff. Basically, I started out in the traditional media world. I was a journalist for years. I covered things like crime. I did politics for a while and then I hit this point, sort of my late 20s where I was just like I've worked really hard. I've got some promotions; I've got some pay rises and I'm just not getting ahead and I don't get it. I don't get. What I'm doing wrong? And it's making me feel really insecure. You know, one thing goes wrong and I'm going to be stuffed because I don't have my money sorted and this is very disquieting feeling because I've always assumed, you know, work really hard, get ahead, and everything will magically sort itself out. And it didn't. It just didn’t. And I started to wonder if you know, maybe the problem was me and it was a little bit, but the good thing about being a journalist at that time, if you boil it down, a journalist basically goes out there, finds stuff that you didn't know about before and tells other people about it.
Jess
Yeah.
Frances
And so I was like okay, I think I can learn about money. But on work time I'm just going to do that on work time so.
Jess
Lovely.
Frances
I started a podcast for my workplace. I started learning about money, interviewing people who were in the money world, and I just absolutely got the bug because I realised that, there was some little changes and I'm not here to say, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and you can be a millionaire overnight. But there are some changes that are available to just about everyone and they will make your life much easier and they're not that hard. Because you get that low hanging fruit 1st and you start to make some changes, you start to get more secure every little change you make, makes it easier to make the bigger changes, the ones that can be truly life changing. But even if you just make those little changes. Those can be life changing by themselves. And so as I was talking about it, learning about it, applying it in my own life and other people were listening to my work, reading my work and also applying it. I saw how this really changed people's lives and I just had the bug from there and it's been down the rabbit hole ever since.
Jess
I love it. It's such a good point in you saying, like sometimes it can seem too hard. And I feel like I'm at that stage now in my late 20s where I am looking at my money. I'm like the concept of buying a house that seems pretty far off, so that's why I'm stoked to be doing this podcast as well as I'm like now I get to learn as well while hopefully educating other people. So it is it is really cool.
Frances
Yeah, that's awesome. And it is funny, isn't it? I think those big goals like buying a house, they are really big. If they do feel really intimidating, you know, for a lot of people, we're talking at deposit of maybe $100,000, which is such a big ask. It's really daunting, but it's it's like that thing. You start where you are with what you have, right? You build up an emergency fund. You start building up some bigger savings. You start pushing for a pay rise. You start putting your money to work, maybe investing. And actually, people will overestimate what they can achieve in one year. They will massively underestimate what they can achieve in five. I changed my whole life, in five years. It was a night and day difference in five years, which is actually still, a really small amount of time. But you do need a little bit of time.
Jess
Yeah, I think often people think, yeah I want a quick fix, right. I want money. I need it quickly. But from what I've learned so far through these episodes. This kind of the long game is better, and like you say, five years, it's not actually that long. It flies by. Like how old am I now? It just goes nowhere.
Frances
I know don't start me, I’m like on the industrial strength eye cream these days. Believe me, the time passes anyway. Let's make use of it.
Jess
Yes, so true. And so, to kick off. I'm kind of keen to know why is it so important for women to invest? Because if I'm being completely honest, I never actually thought about it until being asked to do this podcast. I was like what is this investing thing I don't get it. So why is it so important specifically for women as well.
Frances
I'm going to start with a little bit of a scary stat. And then I'm gonna finish with a nice one. OK, like stay tuned.
Jess
Okay, start with the bad end with the good.
Frances
Woman older woman, are one of the fastest growing groups for being in poverty. So Women often have to take time out of the workforce to have babies. Which means their earning power is reduced, their savings are reduced. Things like KiwiSaver’s reduced. And then often we earn less throughout our lifetimes as well, which means earning power reduced, savings reduced KiwiSaver reduced. And we often live longer. Which means we need more. And if you are married, your husband is likely to die first. So if you're relying on him helping you out. Also u could get divorced. That’s very common. And so woman are the fastest growing group to be in poverty. Older women. And that is scary and it should scare people. I'm sorry, to come in like the bad news fairy but here is the good news. We absolutely can do something about that now. There's a whole bunch of wider society level stuff we should do about that, about supporting women more, especially through those childbearing years. But if we wanna focus on what can you do, right now. It's learning more and arming yourself with knowledge because it is actually quite revolutionary. It is an act of resistance and defiance, to learn more about money and make sure that other people can't take advantage of you. That is one of the most powerful things you can do. And here's the really good news.
Jess
Hmm.
Frances
Is that while women are less likely to invest? But when we do invest, we're better at it, as an overall general trend, right? So women tend to be we're more cautious. Generally speaking, we tend to say, OK, I'm gonna learn more about this investing thing saying I'm gonna give it a crack.
Jess
Yeah, I love that.
Frances
We figure out what we want to do and make a plan and then stick to it generally speaking. That's how women invest. Men often will say. OK. Yeah, great. Investing. Let's jump into it. Let's give it a crack. And then we're willing to give it a try. But that higher risk advertising that means that they get in there and often try and buy and sell and try different things, and they're out and they're paying fees every step of the way. And they're making frankly, more emotional decisions. Everyone thinks that women are the emotional investors. Sorry dude, it's you. They're trying to beat the market, which often means that they underperform it.
If you just take the time to learn a bit about your money and give it a crack, you're probably gonna do, really well, and you need to because like I say, you're gonna live longer and you're likely to earn less. You can't wait for someone else to save you. But you can do some things that aren't that hard to save yourself.
Jess
Yeah, it was interesting because when I did do some research for this episode, It said women are least likely to invest, but we make better investors. And I’m not surprised about that, we are good at lots of things. I must say. So I'm curious to know, why do women make better investors? Is it just that we are least emotional or we better at kind of buying and holding, are there any other techniques that make us better investors?
Frances
Yeah, and often this is like obviously this is all generally speaking, right. There's lots of women who behave differently. But generally speaking, women tend to do research at the start to decide their plan and then stick with it. That same mentality that holds us back from investing in the 1st place. Wanting to know what we're doing is actually once we finally get there, a bit of a superpower because then we tend to be like, OK, I'm looking at the research. And it's that most people do really well just buying and holding and sticking with it. And if times get tough then just leave it alone and wait for it to recover. So okay, I'll do exactly that. I'm not special. I'm not gonna beat the odds. I'm just going to do what's proven to work for most people. That works really well. Because it is what's proven to work for most people. And it is funny, even in my own relationship, like love, my husband to bits, and we have money conversations. And he does, for the most part, do good in the old index fund buy and hold strategy. But he has a dabble, and he'll have some, like individual picks that he wants to do and will constantly invest you. And we have a bit of a competition.
Jess
I love that.
Frances
We'll compare where we're at with our investments. And I'm so boring. I'm just straight into the index funds. I can't be bothered. I'm so busy all the time. I'm just like, get my money in the market, make sure it's doing its thing, and then I've got other things to do. I just need to make sure it's actually in there. So I'm just chuck everything into an index fund. I'm always a good couple of percentage points ahead of my husband that drives him nuts.
Jess
Bragging rights. That proves the point, proves the theory.
So I feel like people listen to this podcast are probably like me and at that kind of beginning stage of maybe thinking about investing. What would your tips be on where to start? There's certain types of investments that maybe woman who are beginning the investing journey should look into first or yeah, what would your tips be?
Frances
Obviously, this is generally speaking, what would work for most people, right? But for most people, I think the hardest part is actually starting. And so I'm a really a big believer in just get started small. It's amazing. Now, you know, when I first started looking into this. Sharsies hadn't even launched yet. I think I was a good six months to a year. When the Sharsies team got in touch and said, hey, we've launched this new online platform, we'd love to talk to you about it and talk about investments. And you know, I'm not that old. I am old, but. I'm not that old. It's it's really new that we've got these micro investing platforms and my response to them was. I don't know. We'll see if you're a legitimate company. We'll see if you stick around and survive, which is hilarious now to think about it when they've got, last time I checked, they had over half a million people investing through their platform. Now they are a monster. Um, but you know, they were really new and fresh and they haven't been around that long. So the fact that you've got these options now of these legitimate regulated companies that let you put in a dollar, five dollars, ten dollars. Means you can start small and The thing is you can do all the reading about investing be like, OK, the share market goes up, it goes down. That's part of how I make money. That's no problem. It's fine. The first time your investments go down in value, no matter what, you know, you're going to hate it. You're just going to hate it so much. So be aware of that and then if you've started small, you're so much less likely to freak out. If you've built up like $200 in there and the market takes a dip, you're much more likely to be able to remember Okay. Yep, that's right, this is normal. This is fine. I'm ready for this. I'm prepared for this, whereas if lets say you've saved up all this money and you've put it all in at once, and it's $20,000 and that's everything you have. You're more likely to go. I can't. I can't do this. I need to bring my money out before I lose everything. Which is the worst thing you can do in a market dip. But it's so hard to remember the first time.
And then as you keep investing as you keep going, you'll have more dips. You probably have some big ones, some small ones and by the time you eventually build up slowly to that $20,000 and I've had so many dips along the way, you'll know deep within you. This is fine. I've done this before. You've almost sort of built up a little bit of muscle memory. On that, so I think. Learning by doing and starting small is so powerful. Everyone always says to me ohh you know. Is it worth putting in $5 for starters, yes, $5 is better than $0.00. But secondly. Um, you are learning by doing the learning that you're doing is actually the most valuable thing at that beginning stage.
Jess
Yeah, that's so such a good tip saying $5 because I think my idea of investing before starting all of us was just that you had to have a lot of money, right to start. So I was just like oh well I can't do it, you know, and there's all these movies out there that kind of pin woman as being not not good with their finances and you kind of grow up with these films of like, you know, women shop and they spend all their money. And so I love that, like you don't have to have a ton of money to start investing. $5 can grow and like you say, then you're not gonna have that moment of panic that you've just put all your life savings into something. And I think that kind of takes the anxiety away a little bit from me as well. Like cool I can start. I don't have to panic and put everything I have into it.
Frances
Yeah, 100%. It does drive me nuts the the messages that we see aimed at men versus women, you know, you mentioned movies and you know, confessions of a shopaholic.
Jess
I was gonna say I love that movie.
Frances
But like you know, I just wish that wasn’t the main way we saw women depicted. We often see this in terms of even you know I'll. I'll take on my own industry that I've come from. You know, a lot of the articles aimed at women are talking about coupon clipping and budgeting and say, yeah, same day, you know, cook for less and a lot of the articles aimed at men are about go for that pay rise. Here's how crypto works. Fix, invest and get ahead and build something and. Both are useful, right? But the idea of there's only so much you can ever cut back and you hit a point where you can only make yourself so small. Yeah, whereas there's no limit on how much you could earn, how much you could build, and the limit is how much do you want. And so it does drive me nuts. The messages that we aim at people because even when it's not explicit, people can take that in and it becomes part of this. One of the most difficult mindsets, I think, to get around because we don't often think it consciously. One of the most difficult mindsets is ohh, that's just not for people like me. Yeah, and that's really hard, especially if you are not thinking it consciously. To get around it, because you will just before you've even looked at it properly or just not for me, and it could be great for you. And I think that's why it's so important to have woman speaking about these issues, all types of different women as well, because if you see someone who you identify with, who you feel is Someone Like You and you like, ohh well. If they're doing it, maybe I could and it just gets you past that initial hurdle, if not even looking at it.
Jess
Yeah, that's so true. Like, Yep. You just often see men and people that maybe aren't like you investing. I definitely grew up with that mindset of investing is not for me. I don't know what it is, but it's not for me. And it's like, I didn't even look into what it was. So that's so true. Like we just need to get more of that education out, like what you're doing with your podcast. And the books is just showing women that it can be done. And there are women already doing it. And so that kind of makes me feel better as well.
And so how should women tackle the balance of short term and long term investments, because what I've learned so far is sort of long term is the way to go. And so I'm sure people have like both short term and long term goals. Is it better to kind of have one main goal? Is kind of your reason to invest in and that's kind of your investment strategy or cause. Often we have lots of goals, right, so.
Frances
The most important thing right is figuring out actually what your goals are, and I often like to talk to people like, you know, if you won Lotto, what would you do? Because it's fun, right? Who doesn't like to think about what they would do with $1,000,000?
But at the same time, it's gonna show you money values. Whether you say I'd buy a house and pay it off or I'd go travelling for a year or I'd help out my parents or. I'd take three years off and just spend it with my kids, um allsorts of different things. You might want to do right, but it's gonna show you immediately what your money values are. Yeah, and what sort of life you would like to build. With money and. Then you say, well, okay, what version of that? Let's work backwards from there. What version of that can we build? Without waiting for Lotto.
Jess
Hmm.
Frances
And again, with the small changes that can help you build their faster than you think, but just. Maybe you would like to spend more time with your kids, and that might mean going part time instead of the lottery win of just not working at all. And how can you build that? How could you do that? Um and it it's really, really helpful to have that goal, because sometimes money will require a bit of sacrifice from you. You're never gonna make that sacrifice just because someone like me is sitting here. Like make sure you have some say in things. Make sure you do some investments, it's good for you. Nobody does that just because it's good for you.
Jess
Yeah.
Frances
Otherwise, we'd all eat alot more broccoli as well, right? Like there needs to be a reason why you're doing this and it needs to feel real to you.
Jess
100% yeah.
Frances
In terms of balancing the sort of long term versus short term? I often try to think about things in terms of the money timeline like you need your daily money sorted obviously, because right now you have to get through your day-to-day, you have to eat, you have to have a roof over your head. You have to be getting through life and not feeling totally miserable. But you also can't Yolo it up every single day and not have any consequences for that. Eventually you're going to run out of Road. Now so you also need to have some future building money. If you think in terms of your money as a timeline of what do you need right now in order to keep yourself? Fed. Housed. Comfortable. Then what do you? Need. That you might be spending in a year or so, and that would be things like your emergency savings, things for to make sure that if your car needs are repair, you can sort it out without going into debt. And then what could you be putting aside and leaving alone for five to 10 years? Maybe more and you don't need that money right now. That's your investments money. Hmm. And again, that might be $5. It might be a tight budget depending on where you're at in your life. But start there, build it up when you can. You get a little pay rise. You can increase it to $10.50 dollars. Whatever your future, building money will increase over time. What's important is that you start because you're more likely to if you get a pay rise, say ohh. I can increase my future money from $5 a week to two.
Frances
Rather than, you're not doing it at all, you know, I'm going to be thinking about it. That money's just gonna disappear. That's just human nature. So get started with something and you can build it up overtime. It's so worth it.
Jess
And I think it's, yeah, it's really important to think about those first steps and often what I say is it feels like a while ago chatting about money was such a hard thing to have a conversation about money, not just investing, but money in general. And I sometimes find, like, for women as well, it can be quite hard to just have those money conversations. And like if you've got a partner and you're both thinking about investing like, how do you start that conversation? I'll try to keep the story short but. My parents, for example, my dad did all their finances. He did everything and I think my mum was not really across it whatsoever and there was an instance a year ago where, yeah, she went to buy coffee somewhere and couldn't. And my dad just hadn't transferred some money into a certain account. He rings me and he's asking for some money. And so I just helped them out. And then she's ringing me going. Oh my God. This was the most terrible experience I was so embarrassed. Like all I wanted to do was to buy a coffee when I was out. Then that sparked her to go what's our financial situation? Right. Why did this happen? And I think it was really great to see that. Now they sit down every week and write down all their bills out. Now they talk about money. And so I guess that leads me into my question of how how do you just start having money conversations because sometimes that's where you can start to look at your money. Feels like money conversations are scary. You kind of don't wanna talk about it.
Frances
Money conversations are scary because they cut to the core of everything that is really vulnerable about ourselves. You know, we often use money. And to be clear, I don't think this is true, but money is often used as a signifier of how important we are or how smart we are, or all of these other things that really are. Honourable soft spots. So if you feel like you don't have enough or you don't know enough about. It can feel like a failing for you as a person. Again, I don't think that's true, but I understand that this is something that comes up over and over again. And it's funny what you say there about your parents. That's super duper common.
It is often and again, this is a real generalisation, but women often do leave a lot of the money management to their partners and feeling like it's a sign of trust and a sign of love and and leave it to them. And yet the other side of it is a lot of men in that situation say they feel a real weight of responsibility of it being all on them, and they actually wish they could share it a bit more.
Frances
Um, so it's it's an an interesting dynamic that can build up there and I think for starters. Yeah, even if you're in a good, healthy relationship, you know, help out your partner. I2 heads are better than one. But secondly, it can also go really wrong really easily if you're not paying attention to your money, because sometimes the men aren't doing what you thought they were with it, and it can go really bad really easily. So I would say at least sort of once a month, possibly more if that works here. Some people have weekly money dates, but at least once a month sitting down, having a chat about what's going on, just running through the bills as everyone's still happy with this, you know we've put some extra money into Kiwi saver as everyone happy with that or we've made this investments. Does that work for you? And try as hard as you can, because money is going to touch on some very tricky issues that points, that's just it's naive to think that there's not the possibility for arguments. That's why we are not talking because I probably had those arguments before and we don't want.
Frances
Do it again, so as much as you can try to just get ahead of that by making it fun. Open a bottle of wine or a pack of 10 jams or whatever. Try to make it a nice experience. And I also think maybe don't dive straight into the tough conversations. You know, maybe you don't actually start going through the bills, maybe you don't actually start with going through your investments, start by talking about what do you want out of life, the Lotto question, what would you do if you won Lotto? What do you want?
Jess
Hmm.
Frances
And and have some of those fun conversations. Or maybe you know, what's your earliest money memory? Did you ever talk about money? Your parents, and that's going to help you understand why someone is coming from and some of that attitudes to money. Start with those softer things that are outside of the here and now, because that's going to set a bit of a a better track record. You're going to have more positive experience. You're going to have a bit more happy chats about it. That gives you a better grounding for when you have those bigger conversations. You get more used to talking about money. Each other, and then you're better equipped for having those other conversations, which are super important, but sometimes really hard to. Start off with.
Jess
So hard. Yeah, I love the idea of justice having, like, some Tim Tams or something just to make the conversation more relax. Like, yeah, that's such a good idea. And do you have any tips for, like, just woman building confidence in general with their finances? Cause we've kind of touched on that women are less likely to invest and maybe we're just less confidence in general, not just investing. In general, with our finances, how can we kind of build that confidence up because it would be awesome to see that trend of, yeah, it's not just the mail. If if you're in a. Relationship dealing with the money, like the females, can own it as well. Like how do. We build that confidence that we know what we're doing, cause I think it's that stigma. Flower don't know what I'm doing so.
Frances
And I think this is something this is this is applicable in all areas of life, right? And it was very applicable in my career. Have you ever walked into a room and it's a work meeting or whatever, and you're just like. Oh my God, these people who are paid more than me and have a more senior position than me have no idea what they're about. And how did they get there and if they're able to do that, why aren't I doing that? Cause I definitely know.
Jess
Yeah. Now I've had that situation, yeah.
Frances
You need to name names, so we've all been there and there is an astounding number of people getting through life doing really well because they simply don't have the self-awareness to realise that they're not actually very.
Frances
So they just crash on forwards and it goes really well for them because actually 9 times out of 10, all the things that you worry about going wrong don't happen. So if there are all these incredibly mediocre people doing well with their money, and frankly probably doing better than you just because they're confident enough to give. It a crack. Why shouldn't you give it a crack? And I sort of come at it from the point of I'm never going to feel 100% confident in what I'm doing. There's always something. I don't know. There's always more to learn, which is an exciting part of life. Don't get me wrong, but it can also hold you back and make you feel less confident. But a enjoy that ride. Just learn more things as you go for it.
Jess
Yeah.
Frances
And that's great. But also remember that there are people with less knowledge than you doing better than you. Just because they gave. It a crap such as.
Jess
Yeah. And that comes back to just starting right like cause sometimes we feel like we gotta know everything to to start something, but it's like.
Frances
Yeah.
Jess
That's not the case.
Frances
How often do? We know everything. You know. You're not a fitness routine, and you might, you know, there might be all things like running techniques and things that you can do. And blah blah blah alright. But just pull on your. Shoes. And go for a.
Jess
Yeah, I'm just started running so like that, yeah. Yeah, yeah, totally. And I'm kind of keen to cause we're kind of on this chat about just money and finances in general for the single woman that are listening. Cause I remember early 20s like you just get asked constantly like when you buy a house, when are you doing this? When you're doing that and it can be quite hard when you've got one income, your income, you're in control of your money. Soil. Yeah, how can you be in control of your finances and kind of feel like you can still achieve your goals without necessarily having a second income from a partner?
Frances
And I don't want to minimise it. It is harder when you're flying solo. I think the biggest thing first is sometimes to just you know that there will always be tips and tricks, things you can try, things that can make.
Jess
It has, yeah.
Frances
A little better to get ahead, but I think the first thing is to just give yourself that bit of grace of yeah, little bit harder and you're not crazy and it's OK to acknowledge that and say I'm still gonna try and get ahead, but it's harder. And that's okay to admit.
Frances
So first of all, giving yourself grace. And then I think the best thing you can do is to. Look at what you've got. Be really honest about what you need right now and what you can use to build for the future and then automate everything that you can because you've got to make it easier for yourself to do the good things and harder to do the bad things that will hold yourself back. So automating your savings, your investments, your whatever. Also, making sure that whips out of your account the day after payday so that you stay on track with your goals, whether or not you're feeling motivated that week, that is just massive because it will build up so much faster than you think, and I think a lot of people have had that experience with Kiwi saver. Now that Kiwi saver has been going for. People will check. It and go ohh. Heck you know I I've built up. Quite a lot of money in there.
Jess
Yeah, I think that we have another go, me.
Frances
And it's just like 3%. Of your pay and it builds up really quickly. And so if you can do that, if you can automate the whatever your future building goals are going out automatically, it's gonna build out fast. You're going to look in there in a year and be like ohh.
Jess
Yeah.
Frances
They have done quite well. Yeah, good me.
Jess
That's such a good tip to automate stuff because we get busy and we just forget 100 and also for me, like I'd hate seeing the money go out, it's just ridiculous. I know cause money comes and money goes, but if it's automated, I'm like sweet, I don't have to see myself losing this much money. I can. It just does it. So it's a great little. Um, I need to flip out. On the other hand, for I'm not in this situation, but for women that are having kids or on maternity leave, thinking about having kids, I would imagine that financially that's quite a hard, quite a change, right, because you're taking time off work and and all that kind of thing. How can you feel like you still have control over your finances and your money? When you're taking time off work and you might not be the one that's earning the most at that time.
Frances
Yeah, yeah. And again, I think starting from a place of being like this is gonna be a bit harder and it might be a little bit of a set back at 1st and admitting that is a good thing that. Just takes a. Little bit of that mental pressure off. You're not an idiot. You're not doing it wrong. It just is hard. And as much as you can. Preparing ahead of time is going to really, really help you. You know, if you're someone who, even if you're in your 20s and you're like, I would like to have kids, probably in my 30s.
Jess
Yeah.
Frances
Nothing wrong with setting up long term savings goals and investing goals that include the fact of at some point I'd like to take. A break to have kids.
But even if you're thinking, OK, we're pregnant now, or we're gonna be trying to have a baby soon. Building up those savings as much as you can is gonna help, because going down to 1 income for a while, or at least. One and a bit income because the maturity of these payments are not that much and they going to go. For six months. They you know, you're gonna need a little bit of. Cushion. Yeah, that that will help you. So if you can prepare in the months leading up by as close as you can trying to live off 1 income. And then you get a little bit of a test drive. All of what sort of expenses crop up that you weren't expecting, how all this is going for you, do you need to change anything you get a little bit of a test run well, you've still got that full back option of you aren't actually both earning and also everything that you get to save is? And set aside for that time when you are offered the baby. So. It's a little bit too for that now I know obviously the cost of living has gone up and that's not always easy for people. But as close as you can to that, it's gonna give you a little bit of a test run.
Jess
Hmm. I love that that, that kind of applies to lots of situations like being on your own, just starting investing like, yeah, setting some goals and and having savings. So yeah, I feel like. Investing helps you to set up for savings for whatever it might be. Kids, house travel. Yeah, some really good kind of fundamental tips on how to get started. In have you seen any like? And be staying. How do I put it? Anything that people have done in terms of starting to invest that maybe they shouldn't be doing like so as there any kind of investing no nose that you have seen people do?
Frances
I think a lot of the time people feel like to do investing sort of right, they should be doing a lot and it's, you know, buying and selling and getting into crypto and doing all these things, being super active. Whereas actually a lot of good investing should feel kind of boring the the goals that will get you to should be anything but boring. But the investing itself probably should be a bit boring.
Jess
Yeah.
Frances
Um and a lot of your standard investing advice and the reason why it's standard investing advice is that it has shown over and over again that it makes the most money for the most people is stick your money into something like an index fund that. Goes into hundreds of different companies. Leave it alone for a few. This and just let it do its thing and you know, just sort of buying and selling and trying to pick companies and and read their profit and loss statements and getting into crypto and all that stuff, trying to go straight into the spicy side of investing, you are going to feel overwhelmed. You probably are going to make some mistakes and it might freak you out.
Jess
Hmm.
Frances
You stopped doing entirely now at some. Client, you might decide that you do want to try out the spicy side of investing, and maybe it goes well for you. It goes well for some people, it doesn't go well for a lot of people, but some. People. What goes well for? Um and some. People just enjoy it. Which you know, fine, there are less expensive hobbies.
Jess
Sort of that risk thing, you know? Yeah.
Frances
Out there. But you do. But at least. Start with the basic stuff you know. Have your broccoli first. And then you can put some cheese on it later. Yeah. You know, start out with the stuff that is proven to work for the most people. Make sure your money is doing what you want it to do. You can have a little play on the side later, but just don't over complicate it. Just just get going with the stuff that we know works for just about everyone.
Jess
Yeah. And I think we can kind of say that applies to any age as well, right? Like because if you are listening and you're like later later in your life and your thing and why I've missed my chance like just start right is that kinda would you say that?
Frances
Yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, there are so many people who want message me like, ohh, I'm 40. Is it too late home 50. Is it too late? Six years are too late.
Frances
If you think about it, I mean, we're probably everyone's living longer these days. I would love to live into my 90s, which means even if I'm in my 60s, then I might have 30 years of retirement to go. Now the standard rule for money that you're putting into investments is you want to leave it alone for five to 10 years at least.
Jess
Yeah, everything.
Frances
So you could still be investing in your 60s cause you've got 30 years to go.
Frances
You will probably. Want some of your money? Is still earning and growing? Now you might have your own sort of investing strategy that might be different for you, but I think this idea that. You go straight into. Super conservative investments, things like bonds or even term deposits. As soon as you hit 65. It's not quite right for this age where we're living longer and you might be needing to do things like pay for a rest home. You're going to need money to do that. So if you keep some portion of your money and invest it and earning and working hard for you, to me that just makes sense. I don't see a time when I wouldn't be invested. I'll probably still be invested when I'm. In my 80s.
Jess
Yeah. When did you start? Actually, I'm just curious.
Frances
Ohh that late 20s. Yeah, as I was, you know, starting and trying this all out. I yeah. Gave it a gave it a crack and you know I say start with $5 a weakness. Exactly what I started with and I say that you're gonna want to learn by doing that's exactly what.
Jess
Ohh wow.
Frances
I did, it worked.
Jess
Yeah, kind of like learn as you go, right? Like. Yeah. Yeah, let's listen to podcasts like these, learn a little bit and then just start. Like, I think that's where I keep holding myself back as like. I don't know enough yet. I'm too scared. I don't know which to start with, and there's lots of different types of investments and I'm like, I don't know which is right for me, but I think, yeah, set some goals and then just. That. And. I'm keen to know your thoughts on the different types of investments like there are so many in that part of it is probably the biggest overwhelming factor for me is kind of like how do you know which type of investment is right for you. So let's say you've done your goals, you've done a little bit of research and you'll still like. Ohh my goodness. How do I choose?
Frances
And I think you start with what's your budget and then? What do you have the appetite for? Right. So if we're thinking about some standard investments, you might look at property, right? But that's incredibly expensive to get started with. Aren't you great investment? Don't get me wrong, nothing against probably investors, but.
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah.
Jess
Yeah.
Frances
You know, I don't have a spare $100,000 lying. Around for the bullet? Nope.
Jess
I'm sure he wouldn't.
Frances
I don't. Yeah. So that's probably off the table when you're starting out, and then you know things like crypto. Well, that's pretty technical and very risky. You probably don't want to start there. Things like gold and silver actually are very specialised. I think a lot of people where that leaves them is the share market.
Jess
Hmm.
Frances
Um and we now have. Much more options for getting into that in a controlled way in a small sort of $5.00 a week way and in a smart way, because the share market is just a bunch of businesses that you get to buy a little piece of ownership of. And so by doing that.
Jess
Yeah. Discipline.
Frances
Your posh arena and you get some of. The. Profits, which is fantastic. You know, people will talk about it like it's gambling. I mean, is it going? Is it gambling going into work everyday? Same thing.
Frances
It's just putting your money to work, having a little bit of the profits of businesses that are doing well. And then if you're looking at that and you're thinking what's an easy way to do it? Well, the standard rule of investing is do not put all of your money into one thing. So one company can have a shocker of a time, and it can go bust. White unexpectedly, happens all the time. But if you've put your money into a fund. An index fund or an ETF that does something like track the 500 biggest companies in the US or the 50 biggest in New Zealand, or the 200 biggest in Australia. You know there's all of these funds that put your money into hundreds of different companies well. The 200 biggest companies in Australia are all collapsing at once, highly unlikely to the point where I'm going to say it's not going to happen, and if it does, Australia's probably in the midst of a coup and getting overthrown. I just don't think that's happening. So you know you, you spread your money around like that and you you start off with these. Little baby steps and it just makes it a bit easier where you can have something that fits your budget. You can just get going and it's not out of this world risky. You can understand sort of where that money is going. Thing.
Jess
Yeah, because I keep hearing the term risk when it comes to investing and often that word just like stands out to me and I'm like ohh, that sounds scary cause I'm not a risky person. No play safe. Most of my life.
Frances
It's funny, isn't it? In the financial world, we talk about risk in a slightly different way from how people talk about it normally, which I think actually holds so many people back risk, but I am not a risky person and my day-to-day life, I like to know exactly what's happening. When I look both ways before I cross the street, I have just stopped.
Telling my son all the time. Be careful. Be careful. Be careful, because that's all what I'm thinking. That's what's on loop in my.
But in the financial world, risk kinda just means more like how much goes up and down, right? So it might go up a lot 1 year. It might go down a lot the other year it doesn't necessarily mean you've lost anything. It's just going up and down and in value. And you have to be ready to ride it out. And the trick with risk.
Jess
Yeah.
Frances
And your money is. You often just need time to sort of smooth out those lines. And yet in the financial world, we never really explain. That we're using this word that everyone thinks they are the meaning of, but we're kinda using it differently and I think. It puts so many people off.
Jess
Yeah, it's there is a lot of jargon and I think the more I've done these episodes, I'm starting to understand that risk isn't this big, scary word. It's not what I thought it meant. And I'm like, that's cool. Thank goodness. Cause like, yeah, everyone's like, choose where you are with your. Risk and I'm. Like, I don't know. We're down here like. So yeah.
Frances
No, I love a lot of risk in my investment portfolio, but that's that's about it. ******* very conservative elsewhere.
Jess
So if someone's been listening this whole time and I've got us on in the car and maybe maybe everything's gone over the head that we've talked about today, what is your top tip? That woman can leave today with. If you could get all your amazing knowledge that you have in your brain, what is your one top tip for women investors? The question.
Frances
I think. Start. I know I've said that already, but I think just start. There are so many. Think of some of those dumb mediocre.
Frances
People you know. And the fact that they are probably getting ahead because they are just not self aware enough to realise that they don't know enough, and that those people imagine if those people beat you in life.
Jess
Yeah, that's not fair.
Frances
Just because they were confident enough to start so, you know, embrace that mediocre mindset and just go for it.
Jess
I love it. That's such a good tip. It's simple. It's like punchy, just start. That's what I need. I just. Need to start.
Frances
If you've got it, you can do it.
Jess
I know, I know. I keep saying that after every episode I'm I haven't actually started yet, but I. No.
Frances
You know what? Attach a treat to it. What's like a little treat that you enjoy? Like, is there a coffee shop that does like an Afghan that you really love or something?
Jess
That's good idea. I do love an Afghan. That's a good idea, actually, yeah.
Frances
Okay. There you go. So you're not allowed in Afghan until you start out, but as soon as you've set up that first payment, you can go get the Afghan.
Jess
That's good. I like that little bribery for yourself. Like someone to hold ourselves accountable. Because I'm like ohh.
Frances
You can tell they spend too much time out of three-year old. I also motivate myself as if I am three years old.
Jess
Sometimes we need that though, right?
Frances
Right. Be the three-year olds that you want to see.
Jess
In the world, there's my top take away from this episode. Now I'm just gonna go away with. Thinking about this. Because when we went. So hard for our money. I mean, like, I've worked since I got a. Paper round like. Yeah, I want my money to work for me rather than feeling like it's not. It's just sitting there doing nothing. So.
Frances
100%.
Jess
And to finish us off, could you tell people where to go to find out more where can they go to hear more from you? I know you've got awesome podcasts I talked about at the start. But yeah, tell people where they can go to get more information if they're listening and they love you, they love your tips. Where can they go?
Frances
So if you want to hear from not just me, but a lot of people are much smarter than me who I interview every single week, the Making Sense Podcast, which is Spotify, Apple, YouTube now as well, which is exciting. Thing and also I'm far too active on social media. Terrible things.
Jess
I was gonna say I've seen your tick tocks is so good. Cause my my attention span is about this size. So I'm like cool a. Quick little video about money 5.
Frances
Yeah, I'm with you. 30 seconds at a time. Just get your money, money and food. Drip fed to. You see? Yeah. Francis Cook NZ on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook. If you're still there. Yeah, it's a good time.
Jess
Also thank you so much for your time today, Francis. I feel like I really. Learned a lot. And my key take away is just I'm just gonna start. That's what I've learned today. And I'm gonna go away and do this stuff to this. So thank you so much. It's. So great to have you on.
Frances
Ohh thanks for having me mate it. Was lovely chatting.
Jess
Thanks so much for listening today. If you want to find out more about Frances, go and checkout her podcast wherever you listen to your podcast. It's called Making Cents and if you want to hear more from us, make sure you're following us for the next episode of Jess learns to invest. I'll see you next time. The content of this podcast is of a general nature and is not financial advice. The thoughts and opinions of guest speakers are not those of the FMA. The FMA recommends that our audience seek advice and respect to investing from a regulated financial advisor. The FMA does not accept any responsibility for loss that any person may suffer from following it.
